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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Community   » The Afterlife   » Anyone consuming HD or Blu-ray? (Page 26)

 
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Author Topic: Anyone consuming HD or Blu-ray?
Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 11-20-2007 07:18 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Bobby Henderson
What's stupid is a person willing to watch a video of a movie that was taped off of a movie theater screen. Anyone who has such low standards is indeed a complete moron.
At last you and I finally agree 100% on something [Cool] .

Mark

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 11-25-2007 01:52 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Scott Jentsch
What I understood that to mean is that he's referring to modern (non-CRT) HD displays
My point was that CRTs can display progressive...interlace is not an intrinsic part of the CRT technology...it is just that they CAN display an interlace as well.

quote: Scott Jentsch
The point you're missing is that unless the player is outputting 24fps, it is performing the conversions you are looking to avoid. The article demonstrates that players of both formats are converting from 1080p24 to 1080i60 as well as inserting the 2:3 sequence.

If the player is outputting a 24fps signal, then yes, I agree that the 2:3 is not happening inside the player. If the display is not a native 24/48/72/120Hz display, that's just a matter of geography, because the 2:3 sequence is being done in the TV, and how much do you want to bet there is a progressive to interlace conversion happening in the process?

And the crux of the issue is right there...if you have a progressive player and you have a progressive display...there is ZERO reason for an interlace/deinterlace procedure. 24p can be displayed on a 60p display without any interlace conversion nor artificats. 2:3 conversion has zero to do with interlacing an image. If you wanted to use interlace using a 24fps source, you would need to get it to a multiple of 24 to not introduce timing artifacts associated with interlacing.

quote: Scott Jentsch
Yes, I have seen the difference between interlaced and progressive in regards to movies. Thanks for your concern! This was the primary reason I upgraded my second generation DVD player to one that output a progressive signal that was handled better by my projector than the interlaced signal that was being output previously.
And right there you just proved the point. A progressive output on your player didn't mean that your projector did the deinterlacing any better...there was simply no interlacing artifacts introduced at all...mere frame rate change. Good deinterlacers cost over $1000 and really good ones are now in the $5-$10K range...much more than could be incorporated in a typical video projector or DVD player (HD or no) (and about half of what they cost about 3-years ago). It isn't even reasonable to think there is a good one in there at the typical price of consumer based equipment. But simple 3:2 conversion for 24->60 does not require significant processing power and can be done cheaply.

Steve

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Frank Dubrois
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 896
From: Cleveland, OH
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 - posted 11-25-2007 07:22 PM      Profile for Frank Dubrois     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
My point was that CRTs can display progressive...interlace is not an intrinsic part of the CRT technology...it is just that they CAN display an interlace as well.
I remember when I bought my first computer, they were selling two monitors, one interlaced and one non-interlaced. Is non-interlaced the same as progressive?

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 11-25-2007 07:48 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

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From: Music City
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 - posted 11-25-2007 08:39 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
All of you should know that interlace came about because thats how Television as a system was devised by Farnsworth... and that was the highest level of technology available in the 30's and 40's when TV was perfected for the masses. Since NTSC became the defacto TV standard the interlace part of it could not be changed until both the advent of computers allowed it and the new DTV standards made it possible for the masses.

Mark

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 11-26-2007 12:24 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
TV was perfected
TV has never been perfected and still isn't.

Also, they had absolutely no business or right to even dare consider creating 1080i. Interlacing is for complete losers, and ONLY losers. I have spoken. (Yes, I have a 1080i TV).

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Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: New Berlin, WI, USA
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 - posted 11-26-2007 01:38 PM      Profile for Scott Jentsch   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Jentsch   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Frank Dubrois
I think that there is a lot of overthinking going on. Just look at the picture and if you like it, buy the unit. Who gives a crap the numbers don't come out. If your looking for an ultimate player that does every mathmatical conversion known to man and out puts a 50000p just to impress your friends and tell them that you have the ultimate machine, then fine. Most people care about a good looking picture, period. Soemtimes "Good Enough" really is "Good Enough".
I agree.

There is a point where a person's discernibility is stunted by their experience, which explains why some people can see a badly done image on the screen and not stand to look at it, while the next person can't see anything wrong.

This has been my experience with HD as well. At first, all HD looked great because it was noticeably better than SD. After a while, though, you begin to be able discern poorly produced programs if you've seen enough well-done ones.

Some people can't tell the difference between SD DVD and HD DVD right away. They are so used to DVD, that the higher quality (even though it has 6x the resolution) isn't immediately apparent to them. What I tell them, though, is that once you become accustomed to HD, DVD is still acceptable, but it's no longer as good as you will want it to be.

Where the tolerance is between acceptable and not acceptable is the grounds for debates such as the one between 1080i and 1080p, SD vs. HD, film vs. digital projection, etc.

I have owned an HD DVD player since October 2006 and I whole-heartedly recommend buying one to anyone that has an HD display, whether it is 720 or 1080 capable.

Looking at the specs of this stuff only takes you so far in appreciating the quality that it provides over broadcast HD and SD DVD. For ~$200, buy one for yourself and sit down and enjoy some great quality video and audio!

I intend to purchase a Blu-ray player when they produce one that is capable of supporting the specs announced (Profile 2.0/BD-Live), that can be controlled by IR remote (no PS3 for me), and for less than $400. That way, I don't have to be concerned about which format a movie has been released on, I can just sit back and enjoy it.

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Frank Dubrois
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Cleveland, OH
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 - posted 11-26-2007 02:47 PM      Profile for Frank Dubrois     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have the Samsung BD-p1400, but am returning it for a Samsung BD-UP5000 dual format player. It is 1.1 compatible and thats all I care about. I don't need to check the internet with my Blu-Ray player, so profile 2.0 isn't important at all. My guess is that a few 1.1 profile machines will be firmware upgradable to 2.0 as long as they come with 1 gig of memory, but then I'm guess they could probably add to the memory too. Even though I don't think HD-DVD will be the dominate format, this player has the features that all Blu-Ray players should have...I consider HD-DVD an extra option.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 11-26-2007 09:06 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have no disagreement with Scott's last post...my big point was to state there is no difference between 1080i and 1080p since all digital displays will convert it to 1080p is flat out plain and simple WRONG (the jist of the post that started my ranting). It is misleading.

The smaller the screen, the less one is going to notice particular differences...in fact the smaller the field of view the screen is (screen size and viewing distance factored in), the less or more important the quality of that image is. Furthermore, the picture will be no better than its weakest link. A well mastered DVD (or any video) is notably better than a poorly mastered one even though they might technically have the same specs. In fact, when I set up systems for theatres as alternative content, I make a point of showing examples of good and badly mastered DVDs so the client can see the quality of their system (using the good DVD)...likewise I show the poorly mastered one (Alien) so they can see, the exact same system that looked really good before, can look bad if the source material is bad.

Steve

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Frank Dubrois
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 896
From: Cleveland, OH
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 - posted 11-27-2007 12:44 AM      Profile for Frank Dubrois     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
likewise I show the poorly mastered one (Alien) so they can see
It is? Which version? I got the double disc version and I like it...at least I don't see anything horrible about it.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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 - posted 11-27-2007 08:40 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I stopped at Circus City the other day and Blew Ray even on sale is still way rediclous high priced... 367.99 for the BDP whateveritis Sammysung that also is touted to have alot of problems! I will definately buy a Blew Ray when they hit that magic 167.95 price mark.

Mark

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 11-27-2007 09:34 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry about that Frank...I mean to say Outland. In particular, (since I have it in front of me) the 1997 version with the ISBN number 0-7907-3304-8 or its UBC 0 85391 49822 3. It is a single disc DVD with Full screen on one side and letter box on the other. What a horrible piece of crap mastering. They probably went to the U-matic 3/4" master for this one or perhaps legitimized a camcordered copy (the print has dirt on it!)

Steve

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Frank Dubrois
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Cleveland, OH
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 - posted 11-27-2007 11:11 AM      Profile for Frank Dubrois     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ahhh yes, I loved that movie too...until I saw it on DVD. I actually thought something was wrong with my TV or DVD player. It was hideously grainly. It actually looked worse than a standard TV broadcast. Truely one of the worst DVD's of all time!

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Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: New Berlin, WI, USA
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 - posted 11-28-2007 02:35 PM      Profile for Scott Jentsch   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Jentsch   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Since the Samsung 1400 seems to be shaping up to be not worth its scrap price, I've done some looking around to see what people are liking the most.

Besides the 80GB Playstation 3, which is the best contender for future-proofing (although Sony has yet to commit to a Profile 1.1 upgrade, much less 2.0), the Panasonic players (DMP-BD30K and DMP-BD10AK) seem to be getting the most praise.

They all have their trade-offs, though, so if one is looking for the best bang for the buck, you have to choose which features are a priority, since none of them seem to have figured out how to provide them all (at any price).

Maybe Samsung's universal player will be the one, but I'm not holding my breath. I've not been impressed with their DVD players, and their Blu-ray players don't seem to be up to par (their first generation model was whacked solidly by reviewers for bad PQ), so there's not much reason to hope that their universal player will be any better.

In the meantime, I've been enjoying my HD DVD players immensely! I have Ocean's Thirteen and Shrek the Third from Netflix right now, and Harry Potter and Bourne Ultimatum are right around the corner!

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Frank Dubrois
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Cleveland, OH
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 - posted 11-28-2007 08:36 PM      Profile for Frank Dubrois     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Samsungs new duo player will be 1.1 compatible. It is also supposed to have the HQV chip in it for better SD DVD picture. The problem so far is that Samsung doesn't have a 1.1 standard player out yet. If you want better SD DVD pictures, you have to buy a Samsung 1200. If you want better sound options, you have to buy the Samsung 1400. The new duo player will provide both features, along with a second video and audio decoder and HD-DVD playback. At $799, you really can't go wrong. It's a lot of cash, but look at what you get. The 1400 was a bust. The firmware upgrades helped, but not to the point of perfection. No firmware update in the world will give you 1.1 compatibility. In the next couple weeks, the new duo player should be available for purchase. I will be picking one up. I STILL haven't opened my 1400 yet. I may, I may not. Either way I can still return it for the duo player, but I don't want to waste my time and sour my opinion of Blu-Ray.

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